Interview of Kemal Okuyan, General Secretary of the Communist Party of Turkey-TKP given to journalist Marinella Correggia and published on Italian News Portal Il Manifesto with the title of "Jihadism, capitalism and neo-Ottomanism: There is nothing good for the Syrian people" on January 3:
– About this sudden change in Syria. Turkish Foreign Minister, said he had convinced Russia and Iran in Doha not to intervene on the side of the Syrian government, otherwise it would have been a bloodbath. It means that militarily the Russian and Iranian forces would have to face huge weaponry and mercenaries supplied by forces outside the country. Which ones?
Okuyan: All these preparations were made in Idlib. Idlib had been left under the control of Turkey during the Astana talks, and the AKP government had vowed to purge the region of terrorists. We know that Russia has expressed its concerns on this issue from time to time, but nothing has changed in the end. In any case, it is not possible for either the UK or Israel to send weapons there without Turkey’s knowledge. It is also impossible for Russian and Iranian intelligence not to notice all these preparations. But they did not grasp the seriousness of the situation. I cannot say they turned a blind eye, both countries were hit hard in the end. It was also ensured that the Syrian Army would not resist. Officers were bought, and inside sleeping agents were activated. The economic conditions in Syria had already diminished faith within the army. Therefore, when the Turkish Foreign Ministry told Russia and Iran, “Do not intervene unnecessarily, this is over,” after the operation began, it was really over. Now we see that the Russian side is criticizing Assad. Russia spent the past few years trying to persuade Assad to meet with Erdoğan. Hence, it was clear that Putin was not eager for a new conflict in Syria. Many sources were already saying that Russia would step back in Syria to get what they wanted in Ukraine. Syria fell before the table was set for Ukraine. I already thought that, in Syria, Russia would not confront the bloc formed by Israel, the USA, the UK and Turkey any way. Things went in this direction. The same goes for Iran.
– Now Syrians, impoverished and exhausted by years of bloody war and terrorism, huge sanctions, inflation, and also afraid, seem to welcome the former terrorists or at best to remain silent. Does the ongoing “nazification” of Assad by huge media play a role on this?
Okuyan: No one can say that Assad and the Baath regime in general had a brilliant record in terms of both economy and freedoms. Thus, we cannot claim that everyone who rejoices at the fall of Assad is a US agent or a jihadist. We know that the situation of the people did not improve, especially during the period when the intensity of the war decreased. It is obvious that there was also a loss of faith among the administration’s supporters. However, once Damascus fell, certainly, many people in various cities of the country would start to prefer the Assad administration to HTS. So what happened to these people? They are unorganized, tired and anxious. They are trying to hold on to life and hope that “maybe it’s not that bad.” The jihadists are well trained. They know that if they do not act patiently, there will soon be major opposition. They do not have the numbers and organization to repel these opposiing people. Now they are taking over the state and they will achieve this strength in time. Then they will behave more comfortably. Now they will present a photo that will please CNN and similar imperialist media. Tomorrow, no one will care about women, Alevis, revolutionaries…
– Erdogan and his Akp, have played a central role in the war in Syria since 2012, as a power that let the jihadists enter Syria coming from half of the world, trained them (still) and with its proxies later kept control and occupied part of the Syrian army. Your party and the Peace association denounced it.
Okuyan: Yes, as a party, we resisted this process from the very beginning, when everyone was obsessed with the “Arab Spring” and there were celebrations of “a revolution is happening”. Jihadists from different countries were trained by NATO countries right before our eyes. The British set up studios in Turkey to prepare fake Syrian footage. Ten years ago they failed. They kept preparing and eventually got it done.
– Which purpose drives Erdogan? A neo-ottoman region? And what links with Israel/US plans? And Qatar, another main player in thwewar in Syria with his money?
Okuyan: Neo-Ottomanism is the fixed ideology of Erdoğan and his friends. They never give up on this. With this, they are trying to bring together international balances and the alliance with the USA. Sometimes there is tension, but now it is clear that a new era of convergence and cooperation has begun between US and Turkey. Undoubtedly, the aspirations of Turkey’s capitalist class lies behind this. These aspirations actually connect Turkey to the USA, the UK and Germany, and also cause it to take new and distinctive initiatives. The Qatari capital really uses Turkey as a springboard. On the other hand, they have also made important investments in Turkey. We call these the reactionary coalition. They love each other very much and the money flowing in and out…
– The jihadists now in Syria were instructed to be “kind” and are well seen by media and foreign powers. But the violence is there and how to forget theyr terrorist behading background? What perspectives do you see for Syria (total islamization? Balcanization?) and Lebanon, Iran?
Okuyan: Jihadism is a reactionary ideology, but it must be said that it is a modern force in terms of adapting to capitalism. They have a pragmatic approach that understands business and making profit. But capitalism itself is barbarism. So here two barbaric dynamics intertwine. Nothing good will come out of this for the people of Syria. Even if Syria does not fall apart, it will have a fragmented structure and there will be endless conflicts. On the other hand, we can think that the imperialist peace will include those conflicts in Syria and manage them for a while. A chaotic stability. Next… What happens next depends on the revolutionary dynamics in the region. At this point, till internal dynamics of Syria start functioning, Syria will be highly effected by the developments in Turkey, Lebanon, Iraq and Iran, but most of all, by the developments in Turkey. Because the biggest damage to Syria was done by Turkish capitalism and reactionism.
– What about Turkiye and the Kurds?
Okuyan: Turkey’s Kurdish issue is a problem that can be solved internallyof course on a class based struggle. Yet, some people think that it is the Kurds’ right to establish a large and united state by disintegrating Iran, Iraq, Syria and Turkey. The world is not the world of a hundred years ago, and they are probably not aware of what that means, or they are aware but do not care. Such a goal will yield no result other than endless bloody conflicts and the further strengthening of the presence of US imperialism and Israel. Some say that Erdoğan is taking precautions against this possibility. No. The AKP government’s moves aim to intervene in the region using “terrorism” as an excuse. It is also important to know that the USA persuaded Turkey to cooperate by using Kurdish groups in Syria and Iraq. This tactic, “If you don’t cooperate, there will be Kurds”, has been working for years. Currently, all of the actors effective on the ground in Syria are openly or covertly cooperating with the USA and Israel. This is a shame for all of us. Ultimately, Turkey will come to an agreement with the Kurdish entity at some point. It did this in Iraq. The KDP administration in Iraq is a very close ally of Turkey, the USA and Israel. Money shapes everything. Turkey’s bourgeoisie does not ask for ethnicity or religion-sect while investing in all these regions.
– Therefore now what could be the role of communists in the Middle East? Only that of a witness, or perhaps of an oppressed force?
Okuyan: If the communist movement in the region is to make a leap forward, it must break away from past stereotypes and become an independent force. It is not possible to be a social actor in the Middle East without defending secularism, overcoming sectarianism and identitarianism, and taking a clear stance against the US and other imperialist countries. Some may think that the field for this has been closed and that jihadists have surrounded the society. On the contrary, if we do not compromise with all these events and organize the reactions arising from the poor strata and intelligencia patiently and take action at the right time, the communists will not only be a force that is oppressed or ignored, but will loose the opportunity to become one of the main actors in the field. We, in Turkey, a country both inside and outside the region, will try to create a new breakthrough by doing our best.
– Now Syrians, impoverished and exhausted by years of bloody war and terrorism, huge sanctions, inflation, and also afraid, seem to welcome the former terrorists or at best to remain silent. Does the ongoing “nazification” of Assad by huge media play a role on this?
Okuyan: No one can say that Assad and the Baath regime in general had a brilliant record in terms of both economy and freedoms. Thus, we cannot claim that everyone who rejoices at the fall of Assad is a US agent or a jihadist. We know that the situation of the people did not improve, especially during the period when the intensity of the war decreased. It is obvious that there was also a loss of faith among the administration’s supporters. However, once Damascus fell, certainly, many people in various cities of the country would start to prefer the Assad administration to HTS. So what happened to these people? They are unorganized, tired and anxious. They are trying to hold on to life and hope that “maybe it’s not that bad.” The jihadists are well trained. They know that if they do not act patiently, there will soon be major opposition. They do not have the numbers and organization to repel these opposiing people. Now they are taking over the state and they will achieve this strength in time. Then they will behave more comfortably. Now they will present a photo that will please CNN and similar imperialist media. Tomorrow, no one will care about women, Alevis, revolutionaries…
– Erdogan and his Akp, have played a central role in the war in Syria since 2012, as a power that let the jihadists enter Syria coming from half of the world, trained them (still) and with its proxies later kept control and occupied part of the Syrian army. Your party and the Peace association denounced it.
Okuyan: Yes, as a party, we resisted this process from the very beginning, when everyone was obsessed with the “Arab Spring” and there were celebrations of “a revolution is happening”. Jihadists from different countries were trained by NATO countries right before our eyes. The British set up studios in Turkey to prepare fake Syrian footage. Ten years ago they failed. They kept preparing and eventually got it done.
– Which purpose drives Erdogan? A neo-ottoman region? And what links with Israel/US plans? And Qatar, another main player in thwewar in Syria with his money?
Okuyan: Neo-Ottomanism is the fixed ideology of Erdoğan and his friends. They never give up on this. With this, they are trying to bring together international balances and the alliance with the USA. Sometimes there is tension, but now it is clear that a new era of convergence and cooperation has begun between US and Turkey. Undoubtedly, the aspirations of Turkey’s capitalist class lies behind this. These aspirations actually connect Turkey to the USA, the UK and Germany, and also cause it to take new and distinctive initiatives. The Qatari capital really uses Turkey as a springboard. On the other hand, they have also made important investments in Turkey. We call these the reactionary coalition. They love each other very much and the money flowing in and out…
– The jihadists now in Syria were instructed to be “kind” and are well seen by media and foreign powers. But the violence is there and how to forget theyr terrorist behading background? What perspectives do you see for Syria (total islamization? Balcanization?) and Lebanon, Iran?
Okuyan: Jihadism is a reactionary ideology, but it must be said that it is a modern force in terms of adapting to capitalism. They have a pragmatic approach that understands business and making profit. But capitalism itself is barbarism. So here two barbaric dynamics intertwine. Nothing good will come out of this for the people of Syria. Even if Syria does not fall apart, it will have a fragmented structure and there will be endless conflicts. On the other hand, we can think that the imperialist peace will include those conflicts in Syria and manage them for a while. A chaotic stability. Next… What happens next depends on the revolutionary dynamics in the region. At this point, till internal dynamics of Syria start functioning, Syria will be highly effected by the developments in Turkey, Lebanon, Iraq and Iran, but most of all, by the developments in Turkey. Because the biggest damage to Syria was done by Turkish capitalism and reactionism.
– What about Turkiye and the Kurds?
Okuyan: Turkey’s Kurdish issue is a problem that can be solved internallyof course on a class based struggle. Yet, some people think that it is the Kurds’ right to establish a large and united state by disintegrating Iran, Iraq, Syria and Turkey. The world is not the world of a hundred years ago, and they are probably not aware of what that means, or they are aware but do not care. Such a goal will yield no result other than endless bloody conflicts and the further strengthening of the presence of US imperialism and Israel. Some say that Erdoğan is taking precautions against this possibility. No. The AKP government’s moves aim to intervene in the region using “terrorism” as an excuse. It is also important to know that the USA persuaded Turkey to cooperate by using Kurdish groups in Syria and Iraq. This tactic, “If you don’t cooperate, there will be Kurds”, has been working for years. Currently, all of the actors effective on the ground in Syria are openly or covertly cooperating with the USA and Israel. This is a shame for all of us. Ultimately, Turkey will come to an agreement with the Kurdish entity at some point. It did this in Iraq. The KDP administration in Iraq is a very close ally of Turkey, the USA and Israel. Money shapes everything. Turkey’s bourgeoisie does not ask for ethnicity or religion-sect while investing in all these regions.
– Therefore now what could be the role of communists in the Middle East? Only that of a witness, or perhaps of an oppressed force?
Okuyan: If the communist movement in the region is to make a leap forward, it must break away from past stereotypes and become an independent force. It is not possible to be a social actor in the Middle East without defending secularism, overcoming sectarianism and identitarianism, and taking a clear stance against the US and other imperialist countries. Some may think that the field for this has been closed and that jihadists have surrounded the society. On the contrary, if we do not compromise with all these events and organize the reactions arising from the poor strata and intelligencia patiently and take action at the right time, the communists will not only be a force that is oppressed or ignored, but will loose the opportunity to become one of the main actors in the field. We, in Turkey, a country both inside and outside the region, will try to create a new breakthrough by doing our best.
tkp.org.tr
